Jenya
Jenya
Knew Something Was Off About That Emo Freak...
Posts: 7
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Post by Jenya on Jun 26, 2009 12:30:54 GMT -5
I just read Khaled's posts since Iris's exile. This is the kind of thing we should have done about Iris before we exiled Faith.. you know, actually see if Iris had done anything lately to catch spies? (hint: she hadn't)
Khaled has posted 15 joke posts since he voted for Iris. He's posted no original scumhunting thought. I know other people are guilty of the same, but this is Khaled, the man who promised us rigorous analysis. I think the problem is that his numbers will point to himself now, so he's screwed if he makes the posts.
* He hopped merrily on the Thor wagon after being pretty positive Amelia was a spy all week. Amelia could have easily gone if Khaled led the charge. Guess he didn't really want her exiled.
* He threatened to vote Iris, but pushed Faith HARD come down to the wire.
* He was the last person to vote Iris.
* He didn't lead the charge agains Iris's claim. In fact, he sat back and watched to see which way the wind blew. He did not help on Iris AT ALL, just defended his Faith vote.
* Iris constantly talked about Khaled, more than pretty much any other player.
* Khaled hasn't done one of his vote analyses in how long? And people find him protown why?
* Khaled thought Callahan was pro-cit by exile time, and "tried to change his vote" but didn't try to persuade anyone.
I highly suggest everyone read Khaled's post history. Now.
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Post by Khaled on Jun 26, 2009 14:24:45 GMT -5
Jenya, I'm disappointed...by the sound of our little AIM chat, I was expecting more. I just read Khaled's posts since Iris's exile. This is the kind of thing we should have done about Iris before we exiled Faith.. you know, actually see if Iris had done anything lately to catch spies? (hint: she hadn't) Khaled has posted 15 joke posts since he voted for Iris. He's posted no original scumhunting thought. I know other people are guilty of the same, but this is Khaled, the man who promised us rigorous analysis. I think the problem is that his numbers will point to himself now, so he's screwed if he makes the posts. Funny story, I called you out on the exact same thing after the Yvette exile. Nice theory as to why I haven't made one of my reports also. Clearly, I've made a mistake and haven't explained my methods well enough, but one of the key components of my reports is the core knowledge that I'm a citizen. That's about the only absolute I've got to work with, besides what people write and who people vote for. Regardless of that, this previous weekend and few days, I've been rather busy. If you'd like, I can give you a detailed schedule of my social and professional activities. Late Sunday night/early Monday morning is hardly "hopping." I spoke with Jason about it Sunday night, then he sent me this PM which caused me to turn in that direction. Aw, I'm flattered. But no, I'm fine with exiling Amelia. I just thought that with Thor, a bit more might be accomplished. Yeah, Iris roleclaimed. Right before then, I was literally about to change my vote to her, but, as is my policy, I don't lynch claimants unless it's a Lynch-or-lose scenario. Also: A Citizen wouldn't try to exile a player with a role without looking into it further. No, I wasn't. I was the sixth. Unless you want to count that whole episode 2 thing. What's the point in beating a dead horse? By the time I got to the forum, everything had been said, except in much more spectacular fashion. I'm just so sexy. *Puts on professor glasses and British accent* Miss Jenya, the question presented here has a logical issue with connection. My vote analyses aren't the only deciding factor in people's judgment of me. Instead, I suggest you revise your argument here to the more appropriate form of "appeal to reason" as opposed to "appeal to emotion." *Removes glasses and British accent* This line has been used on so many people by now, I really think it's silly. With enough support, I can place it into a hardbacked format with an introduction penned by the eloquent Ms. Georgia and sell it. |
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Jenya
Jenya
Knew Something Was Off About That Emo Freak...
Posts: 7
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Post by Jenya on Jun 26, 2009 15:29:15 GMT -5
Khaled, you would like everyone to think you've been on Iris since Episode 2: Besides homie i've been on her back since epsiode 2... Truth is, you never voted her or made a case when she was in danger, only when she was safe. * You actually wanted to vote Levi, not Iris, your #1 Ep1 suspect, at Exile 2: spies6khaled (6:42:51 PM): If I had ten seconds to make a vote, it would be for Levi * Then you made a case on Iris and Paris Exile 2: Iris--Suspect. While her explanation of the "secret meeting" was kosher with the rest of her group, her activity in it does not reflect well on her. She reasonably reconciled her situation with Callahan, however, in the group chat tonight, she said this. [20:07] spies6khaled: Iris, your turn [20:07] spies6khaled: What makes you a citizen? Why should I not vote for you? [20:10] spies6Iris: my final word would be, do you really think that a Spy would have gotten involved in the Robert/Yvette thing and made herself look so bad right before Exile? If I were a Spy I could easily have just said to Callahan, "Sorry, I'm not convinced" and kept my vote on him. [20:10] spies6Iris: Everything I did that day was me being a maverick, which I am. Don't you think a Spy would have kept a little lower profile? [20:11] spies6Iris: And Khaled, when I say people gunning for me, I don't mean you. I'm very convinced that you're a citizen. -------------------------------------- Very clearly WIFOM, and not just a minor occurrence. From this, good candidates would be either Iris or Paris, IMO. * But you voted Paris, an apparent Citizen, over Iris, your top suspect from Episode 1, in Episode 2. That was your first protection of Iris.* Your excuse for not listing Iris on your list of exileable suspects Episode 4: she was jailed. The convenient excuses to not vote your "#1 suspect" keep stacking up, and each excuse was later proven a clever spy ruse to keep Iris safe. Hmm... June 6th Exile 3/4 report: The next list gives exile-able suspects. Mirela, Jenya, Levi Other citizens: (Everyone else, including Iris) Iris--I've voted for her once, and she made a particularly WIFOMy defense that put me there. Her contributions hadn't really helped a whole lot since then, and she ended up helping take out Yvette. There was also that weird vote on Robert when Callahan was being taken out, but who knows what that meant. She's jailed right now regardless, so her vote isn't counted, and I'm willing to wait on her. She's still suspect, though, since she hasn't done good citizen work. * You and Iris were the only two who tried to look good at the Callahan exile, but actually you didn't accomplish jack. Iris voted Robert, and you "tried to change your vote" to Iris last minute. Makes you two look so much more Cit to defend Callahan like that. Oh wait, you didn't--you just tried to look better than the Callahan voters. Distancing #1.* You voted her #2 at the Donald Exile when she wasn't in danger. Distancing #2.* Even though you claimed to find Iris a huge suspect Exile 5, this is the totality of the case you presented on her all week: Iris--Yeah, I'm still on your back. You should know the charges against you by now, but to put them up again, you had a particularly WIFOMy defense in regards to your little "group" from Ep.1, you have 0 spy votes (even though you missed the last one), your level of contribution towards any spyhunting in general is lacking, etc etc. For comparison, your case on Faith was several paragraphs. You didn't push Iris for Exile until Kirsten and Ellis raised her. That was your 3rd protection of Iris.* You were extremely quick to jump off Iris instead of challenging her roleclaim. How much time did you have to evaluate it? To the original comment, yes, I was considering Iris, and was quite literally about to vote her until she claimed. A few other bizarre little things about you and Iris: * Iris trusted you.. too much: spies6iris (4:27:42 PM): I fully believe Khaled is Citizen. spies6amelia (4:27:54 PM): Iris: Why? spies6iris (4:28:35 PM): I've seen too many people be lynch victims because they have a different play style. His method will grow more useful over time, the more data he has to analyze. spies6iris (4:28:42 PM): His actions are definitely pro-town to me. * And a biggie: you knew Iris and Paris weren't aligned: spies6khaled (6:38:56 PM): Paris knows his alignment 100%, Iris. spies6khaled (6:39:12 PM): He doesn't know yours 100%. |
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Jenya
Jenya
Knew Something Was Off About That Emo Freak...
Posts: 7
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Post by Jenya on Jun 26, 2009 16:11:22 GMT -5
tl;dr:
Episode 1, you "tried to vote Iris instead of Callahan at the last minute".
Episode 2, you ignored your #1 suspect Iris and pushed Paris and Levi instead.
Episode 3, you voted Amelia instead of your huge suspect from the first two days, Iris. Why?
Oh snap:
spies6khaled (9:41:52 PM): Iris kindly pointed out that Amelia's post in the Yvette thread was attacking Kirsten more than defending yvette...
You changed your Ep. 3 vote from Iris to Amelia because of something Iris, your top suspect, said.
Meanwhile, she voted Yvette:
Judge Sam (9:44:04 PM): Yvette, by Iris.
spies6khaled (9:44:12 PM): Agh, Iris.
spies6iris (9:44:28 PM): I had to do it, Khaled...she was my top suspect for two weeks now!
spies6khaled (9:44:31 PM): Haha
spies6khaled (9:44:36 PM): It's all good, then.
Man, you were really on her back since episode 2, dawg.
Episode 4: You voted Iris again, when she wasn't in danger. Distancing. Er, wait, you didn't push her for exile cause she was jailed. Until the last minute, when she was safe, then you voted her.
Episode 5: You again ignored your biggest suspect, Iris, and pushed Faith until Sunday 7pm when Kirsten made a case on Iris. Then you switched til Iris weak-claimed, then you demanded that everyone get off her, and didn't evaluate her claim in the time remaining.
Episode 6: You sat and watched, and didn't contribute to the evaluation of Iris.
Episode 7: You didn't use Iris's voting patterns, or the patterns of those voting Iris, to help figure out who's clear and who's a spy. At all.
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Post by Khaled on Jun 26, 2009 16:11:28 GMT -5
Jenya, put everything in that "case" in context, get your facts straight, then come back and try again. Seriously, your argument here is about as well-constructed as that for Creationism.
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Jenya
Jenya
Knew Something Was Off About That Emo Freak...
Posts: 7
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Post by Jenya on Jun 26, 2009 16:17:49 GMT -5
Iris was supposedly your most consistent suspect for the first five days NONSTOP and you didn't contribute to her eventual exile? You watched Paris, Yvette and Faith get exiled over her, and nary a peep from you, nor an attempt to see which scum were protecting your nemesis, Iris?
You two were way too chummy. I smell a rat. I hope more people weigh in on this.
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Post by Khaled on Jun 26, 2009 16:28:05 GMT -5
*Sigh* Let's start by re-evaluating your whole case, given that I voted for Iris, not Paris, in Episode 2. spies6.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=deport9366&action=display&thread=920Let me know when you've done your fact-checking, looked at quotes IN context*, and made a case that's intellectually consistent, as opposed to this stream of utter nonsense. *Wait, didn't you try some nonsense quote thing like that with Yvette? |
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Jenya
Jenya
Knew Something Was Off About That Emo Freak...
Posts: 7
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Post by Jenya on Jun 26, 2009 16:57:16 GMT -5
Pointing out that you voted Iris when she wasn't remotely in danger hardly strengthens your case, Khaled.
There's some legal mumbo jumbo term for an attempt to invalidate an entire argument by pointing out one minute factual flaw. It's called "scummy".
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Jenya
Jenya
Knew Something Was Off About That Emo Freak...
Posts: 7
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Post by Jenya on Jun 26, 2009 17:08:56 GMT -5
Basically, you claimed to suspect Iris most episode 1/2 when it was clear she wasn't in trouble. Then, you went after Amelia because of something Iris pointed out--why trust your #1 suspect like that? Then you protected her with the "jailed" defense all Episode 4. You pushed Faith instead of Iris all Episode 5, and when Iris finally got in trouble and claimed, you were the loudest to protect her. Episode 6, you ignored her and let everyone else do the work. And then Episode 7, you ignored her vote history and never did an analysis to see who her play incriminated.
Is that more accurate?
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Post by Kirsten on Jun 26, 2009 23:51:10 GMT -5
In episode 5, you say:
spies6khaled (5:42:30 PM): The reason I wasn't putting Iris as the #1 priority was because I didn't think I could garner enough support.
You had no problem trying to garner enough support for people to vote Mirela. You had no problem trying to keep people from voting William. Why didn't you ever even bother to try to push people into voting for Iris?
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Post by Khaled on Jun 27, 2009 16:25:57 GMT -5
Alright, let's piece-by-piece this now. For the record, Jenya, you're still about as accurate as a nonbeliever in the Holocaust. First and foremost: I did vote Iris episode 2. Check the voting history, as I already said. While we're on this topic, let's look at this little bit you gave me. So hold up a minute here. You first decide to accuse me of "protecting Iris," when I didn't vote her in episode 2. Then, when I said I did in fact vote her, you said that hardly strengthens my case. Which argument are you using Jenya? The one that's wrong, or the one that's WIFOM? Out of context. Post the rest of the chat here rather than snipping out single sentences to make your case. See: www.fallacyfiles.org/quotcont.html for why that's incorrect. Hold up. So when, at the time, Mirela had been caught LYING, I'm supposed to discard a gigantic, huge piece of evidence that is almost guaranteed to be anti-town, and pursue my secondary case? What kind of crapshoot player do you think I am? See here: mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Lynch_All_LiarsWhy HELLO there, WIFOM, how are you today? Playing with some confirmation bias again, aren't you? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias(For reference, the reason I changed my vote off of Callahan? After talking to him for almost the entire day, I realized that he was probably a cit.) Compare the simplicity of my explanation to the convoluted mess of Jenya's. Yeah, and I voted you #1. I -knew- that neither of you were in danger. The whole goal was to stick up a message saying "I'm seriously suspicious of you guys." Somehow, you forget about that Donald vote at #3 which led to his exile in a close race. I'm not going to re-write everything I've previously written if there isn't anything new to add. Instead, I'm basically going to say, "see previous posts." I hadn't written anything substantive on Faith until that post, so I had to write something substantive. Seriously, Jenya, read the post for its content, not for whatever content you want to put there. Less than five minutes. And Jenya, as you yourself said:Countering WIFOM with WIFOM here: Why would a spy say outright that they think another spy is a citizen? HAHAHAHAHA. Jenya can't read. Hey Jenya, let's try this one again, except lets replace "Paris" and "yours" with different people. Ex. 1 Rey knows his alignment 100%. He doesn't know Georgia's 100%. Ex. 2 Jason knows his alignment 100%. He doesn't know Jenya's 100%. Ex. 3 Boris knows his alignment 100%. He doesn't know Roxy's 100%. What does this mean? It means that an individual player knows his own alignment truthfully, but said player does not know another player's alignment truthfully*. *And even if that player does know another player's alignment truthfully (e.g., is a spy), that player won't admit to such. Moving onto the next post... |
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Jenya
Jenya
Knew Something Was Off About That Emo Freak...
Posts: 7
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Post by Jenya on Jun 27, 2009 16:52:02 GMT -5
Khaled, you're sounding a bit desperate. Try some mint tea and a cold compress to relax. Perhaps a brief break will help you--why don't you stop over and weigh in on the Rey thread. It's been an awful long time since you've done any actual assessment of spy information. Since Episode 4, actually.
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Post by Khaled on Jun 27, 2009 16:55:31 GMT -5
tl;dr: Episode 1, you "tried to vote Iris instead of Callahan at the last minute". |
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Post by Khaled on Jun 27, 2009 17:05:20 GMT -5
In episode 5, you say: spies6khaled (5:42:30 PM): The reason I wasn't putting Iris as the #1 priority was because I didn't think I could garner enough support. You had no problem trying to garner enough support for people to vote Mirela. You had no problem trying to keep people from voting William. Why didn't you ever even bother to try to push people into voting for Iris? A serious question which deserves a serious answer. In truth, most of the evidence on Iris at that point wasn't "big" evidence. It was mostly a collection of things that pointed to her being a spy. You're right, in that I may have been able to, if I shouted loud enough, gather enough people in favor of exiling her. Unfortunately, given that I could be wrong (see Faith), I was a little hesitant. In the case of Mirela, there was instantaneous "big" evidence (she lied). In William's case, there was instantaneous "big" save-him evidence (he has a role). It's much easier to gather people behind a banner that has a short, simple ideology than it is to get people behind something that's long and complex. To point out a similar situation though, giving me heat for not pushing Iris on her exile would be like giving Kirsten heat for not pushing Donald on his exile. |
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Post by Khaled on Jun 27, 2009 17:07:17 GMT -5
Khaled, you're sounding a bit desperate. Try some mint tea and a cold compress to relax. Perhaps a brief break will help you--why don't you stop over and weigh in on the Rey thread. It's been an awful long time since you've done any actual assessment of spy information. Since Episode 4, actually. Jenya, you're so considerate. I suggest that you take a leisurely pass through the works of Aristotle, so that you understand how logic works. It might help in making a legitimate case further down the road. |
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Jenya
Jenya
Knew Something Was Off About That Emo Freak...
Posts: 7
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Post by Jenya on Jun 27, 2009 17:53:20 GMT -5
Jenya, you're so considerate. I suggest that you take a leisurely pass through the works of Aristotle, so that you understand how logic works. It might help in making a legitimate case further down the road. So my case on Rey is no good? Noted. |
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Post by Khaled on Jun 27, 2009 19:02:41 GMT -5
Your skill at strawman is equally impressive.
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Post by Kirsten on Jun 27, 2009 19:08:00 GMT -5
Drives the crows away.
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Jenya
Jenya
Knew Something Was Off About That Emo Freak...
Posts: 7
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Post by Jenya on Jul 7, 2009 12:47:44 GMT -5
Round 2:
spies6Jenya (7:30:18 PM): Who are you voting for tonight?
spies6khaled (7:30:34 PM): +Iris
spies6khaled (7:31:42 PM): Hang on a second
spies6khaled (7:31:45 PM): I'm about to post a thread
spies6khaled (7:31:48 PM): go read my Iris section
Round 3:
spies6Jenya (10:02:53 PM): Do you have a likely suspect to go after this round?
spies6khaled (10:03:50 PM): I'm probably still going to push after Iris.
Episode 3:
spies6Jenya (6:54:27 PM): What do you think of Yvette?
spies6khaled (6:54:35 PM): I'm not sure
spies6Jenya (6:54:55 PM): She's the most controversial person in the Burg. You mean to say you have no opinion on her?
spies6Jenya (6:55:02 PM): Did you read the cases on her this week?
spies6khaled (6:55:06 PM): No
spies6khaled (6:55:16 PM): I'm not sure as in I'm not sure which way to lean.
spies6Jenya (6:56:02 PM): There were cases posted on Donald, Levi and Yvette. You read none of them?
spies6khaled (6:57:05 PM): I've read them, Jenya.
spies6khaled (6:57:15 PM): But that doesn't mean that I can take all of them at face value.
spies6Jenya (6:57:28 PM): What's your opinion of those three cases?
spies6Jenya (6:57:33 PM): Which is weakest, which is strongest?
spies6khaled (6:58:35 PM): That, I'm not completely sure about.
spies6khaled (6:58:42 PM): Donald's I think is the weakest offhand
spies6khaled (6:58:55 PM): But that's not to say it doesn't bring up good points.
spies6khaled (6:59:08 PM): Levi's is probably the strongest, but that's had time to develop.
spies6Jenya (6:59:16 PM): Your Amelia case is pretty weak, agreed?
spies6Jenya (6:59:27 PM): 1) she did poorly in the challenge 2) one post about Yvette?
spies6khaled (6:59:35 PM): What other activity does she have?
spies6khaled (7:00:13 PM): also, that one post is a major form of scumtell. The fact that she did it with some kind of major intent behind it (thought/reason, etc)
spies6khaled (7:00:33 PM): really leans spy.
(Where did the Iris case go? You voted Amelia.)
Round 6:
spies6khaled (7:18:27 PM): Iris's partners? Hold that thought, I'll join you in a sec.
spies6khaled (7:19:59 PM): In order, this is my guess
spies6khaled (7:20:55 PM): Starting with Iris, remove Mirela, Thor, Boris, Amelia, Gretchen.
spies6jenya (7:21:26 PM): Iris went after Mirela as a legit target day one.
spies6jenya (7:21:37 PM): Even though she was mostly absent.
spies6jenya (7:21:47 PM): So yeah I'd discard Mirela as a spypartner.
When you say "remove" them, do you mean they're top possibilities for spypartners with Iris?
Khaled on the Group of Death:
spies6Jenya (10:09:55 PM): If there were 8 anti-town players
spies6Jenya (10:10:02 PM): It was most likely split 3-3-2
spies6khaled (10:10:09 PM): Right.
spies6Jenya (10:10:28 PM): Which means we're clear, your group has 2 and Roxy's has 3.
spies6khaled (10:10:40 PM): Not definitively, but it's a good starting point.
Khaled, you now say Mirela is a definite spy because you're not and the game would be broken if your group only started with one spy. Why didn't you feel that way in round 3?
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Jenya
Jenya
Knew Something Was Off About That Emo Freak...
Posts: 7
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Post by Jenya on Jul 7, 2009 13:01:58 GMT -5
Oh boy, this is starting to feel like the Yvette and Rey cases, so take with a heavy dose of caution.
When Khaled thought I had a role, he was asking me before every episode who he should Watch. In retrospect, if he actually is a Spy and can see both the watcher and the watchee as he said in his capsule, then what he was doing was asking me for the names of people with roles:
"Who is getting an action on them tonight, and thus who should I watch in order to find a role?"
Also, does anyone have evidence of Khaled thinking Donald was the Jailer? When did Khaled start making that case?
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Post by Kirsten on Jul 7, 2009 14:58:47 GMT -5
Also, does anyone have evidence of Khaled thinking Donald was the Jailer? When did Khaled start making that case? Never, to my recollection. |
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Post by Georgia on Jul 7, 2009 22:34:57 GMT -5
I know people thought it as an idea.. for some reason or another.
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Post by Tiberius on Jul 8, 2009 14:44:46 GMT -5
Khaled what was the one post that was major scumtell?
Secondly, I think Sam needs to come in here and start kicking ass and taking names,he shan't be pleased that people are still doing the "THERE ARE SO MANY SPIES IN SUCH AND SUCH A GROUP" theory.
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Post by Tiberius on Jul 8, 2009 14:45:14 GMT -5
First question is regarding Amelia
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Post by Khaled on Jul 8, 2009 15:33:33 GMT -5
This one, Tibs. spies6.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=burg90999&action=display&thread=1076&page=2#5719Keep in mind that it wasn't a super huge scumtell--the way I thought it through is that "If Yvette is a spy, Amelia is probably one also, based on this post." The converse, "If Amelia is a spy, Yvette is probably one also" holds to a lesser degree--however, I was more comfortable taking a risk with Amelia than I was Yvette. |
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