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Post by Jason on Jun 1, 2009 11:57:56 GMT -5
Okay guys, there's been a lot of talk recently about an issue that happened in Episode 1 involving Yvette, Robert, Faith, Iris, and Ariel. As we all know Yvette and Robert built fake cases on each other to 'protect' themselves from Imprisonment. Robert was the first person imprisoned. That plan worked out great, huh.
I think just about all of us agree that someone out of Yvette, Iris, and Faith is a spy, and a lot of us will probably agree that we need to figure out who it is, or who they are if two of them are, that are scum and need to die. Basically, WE NEED to start looking at these three girls! We need to figure out who it is this episode if we can, and if not now then soon. So I'm stepping out of the shadows to tell you who I think it is and why...
Fact 1: One of those people has joked about being a spy many times, including before the game, when joking about an identity wouldn't really make sense because nobody had identities. ...Nobody, that is, except for the spies.
Fact 2: There has been ONE unsuccessful lynch (Citizen exiled) so far. The same person was responsible for making it happen.
Fact 3: Yvette seemed very sure that Paris was a Spy all the way up to the Exile chat... But when it was announced that he wasn't a Citizen... suddenly she was shocked. ...Why would that be?
Now lets look at some nice tidbits of conversation. I'll keep these clips pretty short because giant blocks of quotes are annoying.
So Yvette was the first to want to save Alma, the first Spy we caught...
So Iris thinks Yvette convinced people to go along with the plan. It sounds like Yvette was manipulating people to serve her needs which definitely sounds Spyish. Robert paid for it with his life.
Apparently Iris isn't the only one who thinks Yvette was in charge of things; Faith does, too.
It seems to me like for that plan citizens were drawn in at random... If the plan was to save themselves from Imprisonment... Wouldn't it make sense to be concerned over WHO was invited instead of just whoever was online at the time?? Faith and Iris certainly couldn't have been confirmed or anywhere near confirmed Citizens to Yvette when that plan was made, so why were they invited"? Better yet, how could Yvette feel safe about Ariel and Robert? It doesn't make sense to make a plan to trick Spies into not imprisoning you without being sure that a Spy isn't let in on your plans from the beginning. Yvette doesn't seem stupid at all, yet that's a stupid situation. One answer could be that she's a Spy and didn't need to worry about who was in on the plan; as long as she made herself look good beforegetting rid of Robert and then blaming someone else.
The last quote to look at is this one, which is the most damning of all...
Wait... How would Yvette know that? She seems almost POSITIVE from the moment Paris was announced as not a citizen that he wasn't a spy, either... Weird...
Everyone can take that however they want but the facts that Yvette has exiled our only Citizen so far, was caught up in a secret plan that doesn't really make any sense when you think about it, and seemed to know Paris wasn't a Spy all along, make me believe that she could be a spy...
I can't take credit for all of the ideas laid out in this post; most of it is just taking the words said in public chats and putting things together, but there are a few people out there that have really helped get this thing going and I'm sure if they want to be made known they'll claim credit here.
Basically I want to talk about it because we need to make a good decision this Exile and if all of this can be cleared up it needs to happen so that we don't make a mistake. And who knows, maybe someone else has even more evidence to add?
I'm sorry if this post was bad, I'm not really good at this... Or anything, really... But I want to try to get better, even if it's futile.
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Post by Levi on Jun 1, 2009 12:24:53 GMT -5
Because I had Levi on my suspect list at the end of Week 1 for alternative reasons combined with what I attributed to be some suspicious lack of leadership and coddling up to other people, I would say that this case does a very good job of bringing my personal thoughts and gut feelings to fruition. However, and I am certainly the most guilty person of this in the burg, I think that we have seen before with Callahan, when we accuse someone of definitely being a spy, we tend to write them off and do not really let them defend themselves. Callahan certainly did not try, which made us push even harder, but I want to see what Levi has to say about all of this before I am sold on "Spy caught." However, I will say that the contradictions are extremely damning evidence for so early in the game. There is no point to follow your top suspect's advice. People claim that Robert and I did this on the Callahan case, but we did not, as you can reference on your own our separate conversations with him. Levi, however, I do not believe really has an excuse here. And in combination with "I think Mei Yun is being framed" and then "I might vote Mei Yun", that is ridiculously far fetched to me. In addition, this makes me think that Roxy is more likely to be a citizen. And Kirsten yet again moves up on my citizen list. I agree with the Yvette case. I've been suspecting her ever since she made this post in the Leave Eye Spy thread. Here she says that she suspected me, but doesn't add any new information. Not only that, but she tried to sound smart by restating the arguments that Kirsten brought up against me. To me, this seems like she was trying to jump on a bandwagon without anyone noticing her. I agree with all the points you've brought up against Yvette, but there is one thing that bothers me. I keep hearing various people tell me that she was behind the Jaya lynch. If she was, that makes me not as suspicious as her. But there is a lot more evidence pointing YvetteSpy than there is YvetteCit.
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Post by Iris on Jun 1, 2009 12:54:12 GMT -5
Jason, you've got some good arguments here, especially the one (about why did she trust me and Faith on Day One? I was so flattered to be part of a grand scheme by my team's leaders that I didn't think about this properly at the time, but it sure did strike me as funny later when I saw Yvette's posting saying I was included because I happened to be online at the time. That's not what she told me during that "secret meeting" chat.
I've been saying this to a few people behind the scenes so I might as well say it in public now. In retrospect, I think the purpose of that whole plot was really to disarm Robert. Robert spent his whole day working on the plot and mock-fighting with Yvette rather than searching for Spies. The purpose of the plot was ostensibly to save both of them from Imprisonment, and what happens the next night? Robert gets imprisoned. Looks like a clever Spy plot to get Robert out of the way to me.
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Rey
Rey
Amor del Rey
Posts: 161
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Post by Rey on Jun 1, 2009 13:01:57 GMT -5
Jason, you are my twin! Somehow you summarized all my thoughts on Yvette.
Anyways, it seems to me that Yvette wanted to frame both Iris and/or Faith. Notice how that topic has not been discussed by Yvette.
Her reaction to Paris' flip is the most astounding evidence there is, grouped with the WIFOM spy slip in the opening ceremonies as well as begging for Almathea to be saved. When he was getting exiled she yelled "SPY!" and yet when Sam says "Not a citizen..." she yells "WHA?" I thought you thought he was a spy, Yvette. Nevermind the fact that an ordinary citizen would be under the assumation that after that statement he was a SPY.
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Rey
Rey
Amor del Rey
Posts: 161
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Post by Rey on Jun 1, 2009 13:03:00 GMT -5
Also, Ariel was the one that led the Jaya exile, not Yvette. Yvette clearly states that somewhere in the Burg.
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Post by Levi on Jun 1, 2009 13:19:48 GMT -5
Also, Ariel was the one that led the Jaya exile, not Yvette. Yvette clearly states that somewhere in the Burg. Thank you for clarifying. Vote: Yvette, more than likely.
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Post by Tiberius on Jun 1, 2009 13:47:00 GMT -5
I'm willing to claim that I was a part of this case coming together. Me and Jason had a long chat and he was the one who volunteered to be the guy to post it.
One other point that I've been noticing. Anyone who was trying VERY hard to make themselves seem a certain way before "the reveal" should be seen as suspect. Yvette is for sure one of these people.
There was a time where I was certain Yvette was a citizen, but her actions no longer hold up.
Levi
Vote: Yvette
Is my choice as of now as well.
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Post by Tiberius on Jun 1, 2009 13:49:53 GMT -5
Jason, you've got some good arguments here, especially the one (about why did she trust me and Faith on Day One? I was so flattered to be part of a grand scheme by my team's leaders that I didn't think about this properly at the time, but it sure did strike me as funny later when I saw Yvette's posting saying I was included because I happened to be online at the time. That's not what she told me during that "secret meeting" chat. I've been saying this to a few people behind the scenes so I might as well say it in public now. In retrospect, I think the purpose of that whole plot was really to disarm Robert. Robert spent his whole day working on the plot and mock-fighting with Yvette rather than searching for Spies. The purpose of the plot was ostensibly to save both of them from Imprisonment, and what happens the next night? Robert gets imprisoned. Looks like a clever Spy plot to get Robert out of the way to me. This I agree with, totally. This was a distraction plan. An attempt to remove one of our strongest citizens from the playing field.
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Post by Thor on Jun 1, 2009 14:44:41 GMT -5
i've flipflopped consistently on yvette. right now, i think she's more likely to be a spy. my reasons:
- callahan lynch. duh. yes, i was a strong supporter of it as well, probably the second strongest behind our dear yvette herself. however, yvette initiated the case, and i don't think i would have followed it without her to point out his faults. - very late addition to jaya lynch - there were already votes on her from myself, ariel, tiberius, and roxy (we didn't know about pete's). she changed her vote five minutes before the deadline, i believe - i'll have to doublecheck that. - why wasn't ariel imprisoned? she's arguably one of the most cleared players in the game, certainly moreso than mei yun was. well, ariel trusts yvette. more than anyone, as far as i know. everyone knows they're close. if ariel were imprisoned, yvette would lose an extremely influential ally.
right now, i'm undecided on whether or not my vote will be going to yvette. i really want to believe that i can trust yvette. i really truly do. however, every time i try and find a convincing reason as to why she is a citizen there's a caveat the renders it mostly moot.
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Post by Pete on Jun 1, 2009 17:01:14 GMT -5
Oh the irony of this post is something Gab will understand BUT....
Yvette, I would like you to answer something for me (after everything else of course)
In the first quote Jason makes about you wishing to save Almathea, it could be argued that should you have thought that Cal and Roxy are spies then naturally you would want to save Alma. However, looking through the old cases and talking to a few people, it seems that that is not the case....if you were so neutral or even non-suspecting of her, surely you would want Roxy saved?
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Post by Amelia on Jun 1, 2009 17:03:46 GMT -5
This is all very interesting. I don't have anything to add, but I have some things to ponder.
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Post by Ed on Jun 1, 2009 17:23:35 GMT -5
While I have never had a good feeling about Yvette, I have to say that I am disturbed to see 7 people suddenly get the urge to go public with their suspicions of Yvette...especially when she is not around to defend herself.
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Post by Kirsten on Jun 1, 2009 18:37:14 GMT -5
I have a lot to say about this. I would prefer to allow Yvette to defend herself first, before I say anything, though.
I will say that overall, I think this is weak. And I think it's telling that people have ignored me catching Donald in a lie, but yet rally in a bandwagon here.
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Post by Kirsten on Jun 1, 2009 18:39:25 GMT -5
Also:
I want to see the chats that took place that caused the Jaya lynch. I want to know specifically what was said, who said it, when it was said, and how everyone piled on board.
That is a piece of evidence that is being ignored, or brushed aside willfully.
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Post by Tiberius on Jun 1, 2009 18:59:16 GMT -5
As I said at the time, I voted for Jaya merely because I was very uninformed that round and she was the only one who seemed to have evidence against her, namely voting with Almathea. The thing that sent it home was a chat I had with her trying and failing to get her to defend herself effectively. I could post that if you wish?
I don't know if there was any other "chats" that lead to it. And in fact the only other person who I KNEW was voting Jaya before the reveal was Ariel.
Kirsten, honestly due to outside of game business I haven't been able to read the Donald case. I'll try to get to it.
Does anyone know if Yvette is going to be back before Exile? I sure hope so? I didn't realize when i was talking with Jason that she was away.
If she doesn't have a chance to defend herself before then I might just not vote for her because I'd hate to see her go without a proper shot...
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Post by Kirsten on Jun 1, 2009 19:04:03 GMT -5
Nah. Basically, I want to know why Thor/Ariel/Yvette swapped, mostly. They were all players who had posted different suspects in the exile thread and managed to swap last minute. I'm wondering how that all came together.
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Post by Iris on Jun 1, 2009 19:14:57 GMT -5
I won't vote her if she's not around to defend herself either, I'm just putting my suspicion of her on the record.
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Post by Kirsten on Jun 1, 2009 19:32:20 GMT -5
I agree with the Yvette case. I've been suspecting her ever since she made this post in the Leave Eye Spy thread. Here she says that she suspected me, but doesn't add any new information. Not only that, but she tried to sound smart by restating the arguments that Kirsten brought up against me. To me, this seems like she was trying to jump on a bandwagon without anyone noticing her. I'm noting the pure irony of this post. You are doing pretty much exactly what you just accused Yvette of doing in the case against you. Also, Levi, spies6Kirsten (7:00:15 PM): as for 2, she had expressed suspicion of you beforehand, although in private chats, so I don't think that's a huge tell. I explained this to you already. Why didn't you follow up on it? You didn't bother to ask me for those chats, or try to find out if this was true or not, you just bulldozed forward with your suspicion anyway. Anyways, it seems to me that Yvette wanted to frame both Iris and/or Faith. Notice how that topic has not been discussed by Yvette. She did? Point out evidence to back up this assertion. I've heard people assert this a few times, but I haven't seen anywhere anyone has actually given any evidence whatsoever to suggest this being the case. I'll show my evidence on the matter: spies6Kirsten (1:49:13 AM): so what do you think about Robert being imprisoned spies6Kirsten (1:49:25 AM): inside job? Or poor coincidence? spies6Yvette (1:49:33 AM): Wasn't expecting it, don't really believe it's an inside job. spies6Yvette (1:49:40 AM): I think Robert was imprisoned because of Almathea. spies6Yvette (1:49:47 AM): He was the first one to turn suspicions onto her. spies6Yvette (1:49:57 AM): And perhaps the spies saw through our visibly fake and faulty cases. spies6Yvette (1:50:07 AM): There is no real way of telling until the end of the game. spies6Yvette (1:50:45 AM): So I am not going to hunt down everyone from our little group, because I believe they would have been much smarter to let Robert survive. After all, we had agreed that if one of us were imprisoned, the plan would immediately go public. Also, Ariel was the one that led the Jaya exile, not Yvette. Yvette clearly states that somewhere in the Burg. Again, back up your assertions with evidence. I searched Yvette's posts and did not find anywhere she makes that assertion. Find where she does it. Also, Ariel was the one that led the Jaya exile, not Yvette. Yvette clearly states that somewhere in the Burg. Thank you for clarifying. Vote: Yvette, more than likely. Not even going to bother to figure out whether Rey's statement is trustworthy or not? And you're going to use that unsupported assertion to back up your vote? Seems like the citizen thing to do, right? - callahan lynch. duh. yes, i was a strong supporter of it as well, probably the second strongest behind our dear yvette herself. however, yvette initiated the case, and i don't think i would have followed it without her to point out his faults. Really, Thor? Really? She's suspicious because she found faults in Callahan that you agreed with? And you're obviously clean because you just played sheep to her, right? If her points against Callahan were good enough that you voted off of them, then you seriously have no case accusing her of being suspicious for making those points. why wasn't ariel imprisoned? she's arguably one of the most cleared players in the game, certainly moreso than mei yun was. well, ariel trusts yvette. more than anyone, as far as i know. everyone knows they're close. if ariel were imprisoned, yvette would lose an extremely influential ally. Weak. Why was Mei Yun imprisoned? She wasn't confirmed by any stretch whatsoever. There are plenty of other much more confirmed citizens around than Mei Yun.
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Post by Mirela on Jun 1, 2009 19:53:54 GMT -5
I really think this is a very important case. One of those four girls (Yvette, Iris, Faith, Ariel) must be a spy. I mean, it's only logical since Robert was imprisoned right after that whole ituation happened. It can be very likely that Yvette informed Iris, Ariel, and Faith on the plan just to make them look extremely suspicious. Why would she need three peope for the plan anyway? The fact she informed so many individuals is a clear sign she wants to cause confusion. Most evidence leads to Yvette. Unless of course, one of the other girls is the spy, and did the same thing. But I'm not quite sure about that.
Ariel doesn't seem like a spy, especially after voting out two spies. And I believe Iris and Faith are citizens,mainly because I've talked to them on numerous occasions and have observed them in group chats and whatnot. Iris did a very good job on most of the challenges. Faith is less of a confirmed citizen than Iris, but I still think she poses citizen like characteristics. And who does that leave?
Yvette. Of course, I have not spoken to her yet. But based on the evdence collected, it's cear that Yvette could be a spy. And look at this! If Yvette is a spy, then it practcally guantees that Iris, Ariel, and Faith are all citizens. This could prove deterimental whoever gets the investigation, because ten they can confide in them.
I think we can learn a lot from an Yette exile. If she is not a spy, then Faith probaby is. She's the next likely suspect on the list.
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Post by Kirsten on Jun 1, 2009 20:01:11 GMT -5
It's possible that more than 1 spy are in that group of 4. It's possible that none are a spy.
Brute forcing through that group of 4 players is dumb. People die over the course of the game. This list will get narrowed down as the game goes on, and we can make smarter decisions on who is likely to be a spy from that group as we gather more information. This is not something that needs to be taken care of RIGHT NOW, especially since there's no guarantee 1 of the 4 is even a spy.
As much as I would just love to brute force through 4 people in hopes of finding 1 spy (sarcasm), I think a better option would be to base our exiles on more solid evidence, not shaky circumstantial stuff.
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Post by Oswald on Jun 1, 2009 21:03:12 GMT -5
Jason,
Can I ask what this means please?
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Jenya
Jenya
Knew Something Was Off About That Emo Freak...
Posts: 7
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Post by Jenya on Jun 1, 2009 21:07:07 GMT -5
I think Jason's case is strong, particularly the part where Yvette said "WHA." and "A Super Citizen?" Those are not the things a Citizen says when Sam announces an exilee is "Not A Citizen".
I've gotten a sensation of looming evil from Yvette since day one, and I think that her actions have been net negative by town for a long shot. She took Robert out of the action day one, led the exile of a citizen, and begged for Almathea to be saved when she actually claimed to find Almathea suspicious and thought Roxy was neutral.
Yvette's one citizen point in this game comes from the Jaya exile vote, and I have to say, any Spy in the Callahan group needed to exile a spypartner soon or they'd be next on the exile list. I think Jaya, a relatively weak spy, was sacrificed by one or two of her partners.
It's also odd that Kirsten is defending Yvette so strongly. I believe this is the first time we've seen one player put their neck on the line for another in this game. The question is--why?
Kirsten, can you please post your analysis of Yvette's play overall?
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Jenya
Jenya
Knew Something Was Off About That Emo Freak...
Posts: 7
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Post by Jenya on Jun 1, 2009 21:08:56 GMT -5
Oswald, your immediate reaction to Sam saying "Not a Citizen" was to celebrate, thinking we'd gotten our 2nd spy in a row that night. Yvette's first reaction was "WHA? He's not a spy. What the hell are you talking about, Samuel?"
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Roxy
Roxy
Dead Queen Bitch.
Posts: 50
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Post by Roxy on Jun 1, 2009 21:12:48 GMT -5
I never noticed that, I have to say this seems to be a really strong piece of evidence.
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Post by Thor on Jun 1, 2009 21:34:00 GMT -5
here's yvette's hand in the jaya lynch.
spies6thor (9:49:24 PM): not much time. rey's bandwagoning a FUCKTON of people and pete and ariel and i think this is horribly wrong and we're + jaya - pete. spies6thor (9:49:40 PM): you and ariel are the ONLY people he didn't talk about pete to. spies6Yvette (9:49:44 PM): I have already beat you TO it, ha! spies6Yvette (9:49:48 PM): + Georgia - Pete spies6thor (9:50:02 PM): i think georgia might be the wrong idea. spies6thor (9:50:33 PM): i don't know but tiberius is + jaya, he doesn't even buy the pete case and he and rey are close as fuck. spies6Yvette (9:51:08 PM): I may change my vote, I am not sure.
(this is the last time we spoke of it before it took place.)
spies6Ariel (9:54:01 PM): Yvette's changing to Rey. spies6Ariel (9:54:04 PM): er. spies6Ariel (9:54:05 PM): Not Rey. spies6Ariel (9:54:06 PM): Jaya.
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Post by Kirsten on Jun 1, 2009 22:26:37 GMT -5
It's also odd that Kirsten is defending Yvette so strongly. I believe this is the first time we've seen one player put their neck on the line for another in this game. The question is--why? Kirsten, can you please post your analysis of Yvette's play overall? Eh, I wanted to wait and let her defend herself entirely before I butted in, but I see she's going to be gone all of today anyway. Besides, Jenya, you already knew I wasn't suspicious of Yvette. We've discussed this before. Is this really a surprise to you? I think right now, that this is a spy-driven Exile. It has all the makings of a good mislynch. We have Yvette not being present to defend herself, Check. We have people bringing up evidence that is simply untrue or misguided (Rey, Levi, Check). We have the entirety of the evidence against her being circumstantial or based on extremely flimsy evidence, check. Meanwhile, I presented evidence against Donald and he contradicts himself in a lie while defending against it, and it goes almost unremarked on. Seriously? Ask yourselves. Which one is the citizen here and who is the spy? Is the spy the one who had 19 people gang up on her with misinformation when she is gone? Or is it the one who has legitimate information against him which has gone entirely ignored? Anyway, here is what I have to say about Yvette, and the case against her: I think just about all of us agree that someone out of Yvette, Iris, and Faith is a spy, and a lot of us will probably agree that we need to figure out who it is, or who they are if two of them are, that are scum and need to die. Basically, WE NEED to start looking at these three girls! We need to figure out who it is this episode if we can, and if not now then soon. So I'm stepping out of the shadows to tell you who I think it is and why... As I mentioned in response to Mirela, this doesn't have to happen right now. Why do we need to start lining up a firing squad at those 4 immediately? 1. We don't know for sure there is a spy amongst them 2. Over time, we will learn more about everyone involved. 3. Over time players die off, lowering the chance of error involved. 1 out of 4 is probably a spy. That's 25%. Add in the chance none are a spy, and you have roughly 20%. 5 out of 25 remaining players in this game are spies. That's 20%. Can someone explain to me why we have to be killing off this group of players right now? Because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Fact 1: One of those people has joked about being a spy many times, including before the game, when joking about an identity wouldn't really make sense because nobody had identities. ...Nobody, that is, except for the spies. And? Don't you think that the spies, having known before the game that they were spies would be a little more cautious in this regard? Fact 2: There has been ONE unsuccessful lynch (Citizen exiled) so far. The same person was responsible for making it happen. Person? Don't you mean persons? From what I gather, here is the responsible party for Callahan being exiled. Please correct me if I'm wrong: Yvette, Khaled, Ed, Robert, Mirela, Ariel, Thor, Faith Blaming Yvette for the exile simply because she was the loudest proponent is stupid and irresponsible. If you voted Callahan, you are just as responsible for his exile as Yvette. In fact, I'd argue that Yvette jumping on his errors and pushing the exile home is less suspicious than people playing sheep to her opinion and now blaming her for the exile. Anyone disagree? Have any of you ever been wrong before in a game of mafia? From reading this thread, people are making it sound like being wrong on a day 1 lynch means she's automatically a spy. That's a short-sighted opinion to hold. Being wrong is not scummy. Fact 3: Yvette seemed very sure that Paris was a Spy all the way up to the Exile chat... But when it was announced that he wasn't a Citizen... suddenly she was shocked. ...Why would that be? I don't find this to be a conclusive argument. Sam has listed players as either Citizen or Spy in revealing so far. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume she could have simply been thrown off by "Not a citizen." This argument assumes she is stupid enough to publicly announce the fact that she was surprised Paris was not a citizen. That seems like the kind of error a newer player would make. As for Levi's argument. spies6levi (6:56:45 PM): 2. She bandwagoned very quickly on the case you posted against me. spies6Kirsten (7:00:15 PM): as for 2, she had expressed suspicion of you beforehand, although in private chats, so I don't think that's a huge tell. Laughing again at how quickly Levi bandwagoned on this case (the irony!), here is one place she comments on Levi in chats: spies6Yvette (3:31:02 AM): This was just my passing summary on Levi. "Levi Levi asked me for an alliance right after we had first met, prior to alignment reveals. He spent both mafia games trying to convince me how he had failed quite hard and was not very good at the game. Extremely suspicious knowing what I do now." spies6Kirsten (3:31:08 AM): just kind of "mhmm, yeah, yep, it's tough early on in the game" type comments in reply to what I said spies6Yvette (3:31:25 AM): By "knowing what I do now", I meant "That spies knew who they were from the start of the game" spies6Yvette (3:31:43 AM): I felt like Levi did that very much so when I first met him, as well. spies6Kirsten (3:31:43 AM): really, he said he wasn't good at the game? spies6Yvette (3:31:51 AM): Basically trying to coddle me. spies6Yvette (3:31:54 AM): Yes, he did. spies6Yvette (3:32:03 AM): I doubt I have the private chats saved somewhere, though. spies6Kirsten (3:32:05 AM): because he mentioned somewhere that his gut is like 70% right in mafia spies6Yvette (3:32:22 AM): But it was something I distinctly remember him bringing up over and over again how he usually does well, but did quite bad in the games. spies6Kirsten (3:32:23 AM): also that he had a gut feeling that I was a spy, so I guess I fall into that 30% category... spies6Kirsten (3:32:47 AM): hmm... spies6Kirsten (3:32:52 AM): well that's somewhat less suspicious spies6Kirsten (3:33:00 AM): if he mentioned that he usually does well spies6Yvette (3:33:06 AM): Yes. I've already addressed Rey/Thor/Mirela's suspicions. -------------------------- My overall stance on Yvette: The Callahan Exile: Not suspicious. She took the leadership role in getting him exiled. She is willing to step up and put herself immediately in the spotlight and play a dominant role. If she is a spy, she is giving herself ample opportunity to slip up, and I haven't seen her slip yet. The Robert thing: Again, I don't find Yvette suspicious here. If Yvette is a spy who wanted to imprison Robert, then she could have simply just imprisoned Robert. Why the hell would she concoct a scheme to save him from imprisonment, that will become public and put her under a lot of scrutiny if her entire goal was...his imprisonment? It doesn't make sense. Yvette has no motivation to concoct a scheme to save Robert from imprisonment if she simply wants to imprison him. Yvette has no motivation to imprison Robert after she has concocted this scheme since Robert and her are confidants and by imprisoning him she puts herself under a lot of scrutiny when this goes public. Regarding the Robert thing, I think the fact that 5 players were in on it is stupid. The chances of having a spy involved drastically go up the more players who know about it. However, I don't see how that suggests she is a spy at all She was on the Jaya exile, which was close. She did not need to be on that exile as a spy. If Yvette is a spy, she has shown that she has no problem taking strong stances and pushing mis-exiles. As a spy, I would expect Yvette to stick with Georgia and not back off and vote Jaya instead, especially in an exile that close. Jaya was also one of her original suspects from the exile thread. I do not think the evidence adds up to her being a spy. There is also a lot of points being suggested and agreed upon that have no background in fact. Where was Yvette trying to sell out Iris and Faith? From my chats with her, this is not the case at all. Levi's point about her bandwagoning on him is also false, and I even pointed out how it was false in chats the other day, and he simply presented it anyway.
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Post by Kirsten on Jun 1, 2009 22:35:46 GMT -5
Having just defended you thoroughly:
spies6Yvette (3:32:03 AM): I doubt I have the private chats saved somewhere, though.
Why would you not have the private chats saved somewhere?
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Post by Thor on Jun 1, 2009 22:59:56 GMT -5
- callahan lynch. duh. yes, i was a strong supporter of it as well, probably the second strongest behind our dear yvette herself. however, yvette initiated the case, and i don't think i would have followed it without her to point out his faults. Really, Thor? Really? She's suspicious because she found faults in Callahan that you agreed with? And you're obviously clean because you just played sheep to her, right? If her points against Callahan were good enough that you voted off of them, then you seriously have no case accusing her of being suspicious for making those points. did i say that i was not suspicious for doing the same? no. but i find yvette to be more suspicious because she started a case based on a slip that wasn't a slip. i voted based on callahan's poor defense. yvette started a case that didn't make sense in hindsight, but callahan's poor reaction sealed his fate. why wasn't ariel imprisoned? she's arguably one of the most cleared players in the game, certainly moreso than mei yun was. well, ariel trusts yvette. more than anyone, as far as i know. everyone knows they're close. if ariel were imprisoned, yvette would lose an extremely influential ally. Weak. Why was Mei Yun imprisoned? She wasn't confirmed by any stretch whatsoever. There are plenty of other much more confirmed citizens around than Mei Yun. congratulations, you completely missed my point and, if you didn't, made no effort to dismiss it.
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Post by Kirsten on Jun 1, 2009 23:41:58 GMT -5
did i say that i was not suspicious for doing the same? no. but i find yvette to be more suspicious because she started a case based on a slip that wasn't a slip. i voted based on callahan's poor defense. yvette started a case that didn't make sense in hindsight, but callahan's poor reaction sealed his fate. Ok. What about her case didn't make sense? congratulations, you completely missed my point and, if you didn't, made no effort to dismiss it. I don't think I missed your point. Your point was that Yvette is suspicious because Ariel and her are buddies and Ariel wasn't imprisoned. My point is that there are plenty of people who look just as citizen if not more citizen than Ariel. Tiberius and Pete were on both spy exiles. Why was Mei Yun imprisoned over them? Was it because Rey is buddies with Tiberius and so somehow Rey is now a spy? This kind of accusation is grounded entirely in coincidence and conjecture, and not at all in any kind of actual evidence or fact. The point is that the Mei Yun imprisonment clearly wasn't made on the basis of "who is the most confirmed citizen." So trying to make the point that someone more confirmed than Mei Yun wasn't imprisoned and thus Yvette is a spy isn't a strong case. There were a lot of people more confirmed than Mei Yun, and they were not imprisoned either.
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Post by Gabriela on Jun 1, 2009 23:57:02 GMT -5
kristen beat me to this, but i already have so much written im posting it anyway. Fact 1: One of those people has joked about being a spy many times, including before the game, when joking about an identity wouldn't really make sense because nobody had identities. ...Nobody, that is, except for the spies. weak. tons of people have been joking about their alignments all game long. and i disagree that its more suspicious to be doing it before alignments were given to everyone. and even if i didnt, the fact that you so far havent given a specific example devalues the point. Fact 2: There has been ONE unsuccessful lynch (Citizen exiled) so far. The same person was responsible for making it happen. weak. first, compared to previous games, we are doing ridiculously well. does anyone seriously think we should be 4 for 4 at this point? secondly, if every time we exiled someone who posted an incorrect case against someone, the public exchange of ideas would stop. third, the successes we have had so far havent been that much to brag about. for the jaya one, ive heard two of the people who voted her say that they were very uninformed that round. and paris wasnt actually a spy. most of the information against him was based around the fact that he and alma knew eachother were spies, which we now know is not true. all in all, weve been lucky. So Yvette was the first to want to save Alma, the first Spy we caught... untrue. and mei yun was a citizen. yvette obviously wasnt going to suggest saving callahan, so assuming roxy is a citizen she had a 50/50 shot. So Iris thinks Yvette convinced people to go along with the plan. It sounds like Yvette was manipulating people to serve her needs which definitely sounds Spyish. Robert paid for it with his life. Apparently Iris isn't the only one who thinks Yvette was in charge of things; Faith does, too. It seems to me like for that plan citizens were drawn in at random... If the plan was to save themselves from Imprisonment... Wouldn't it make sense to be concerned over WHO was invited instead of just whoever was online at the time?? Faith and Iris certainly couldn't have been confirmed or anywhere near confirmed Citizens to Yvette when that plan was made, so why were they invited"? Better yet, how could Yvette feel safe about Ariel and Robert? It doesn't make sense to make a plan to trick Spies into not imprisoning you without being sure that a Spy isn't let in on your plans from the beginning. Yvette doesn't seem stupid at all, yet that's a stupid situation. One answer could be that she's a Spy and didn't need to worry about who was in on the plan; as long as she made herself look good beforegetting rid of Robert and then blaming someone else. asked and answered. Just because you are a waste of life, Ed, does not mean I couldn't stand you four. Also, to clarify, Thor was not around when the plan was thought up, as you will see. And I quite liked Callahan when I first spoke to him. Reasons why I trusted those four: Robert - He and I had been talking from the very start of the game, especially during the mini-mafia games, about our views as players. Although it certainly wasn't a friendly chat (in terms of what we said about others), we did not understand how some people could be so bad at playing mafia, and that it almost seemed like some people were playing dumb. Robert did not play dumb, he played quite strong, and while we knew that we came from different places in terms of how we viewed an idea citizen, we immediately had citizen reads on one another. I knew that he and I would be some of the biggest Imprisonment targets to start, and as such, I consulted with him about this plan because people ran around the burg for the first few days screaming "Robert and Yvette are probably going to be Imprisoned first!" Ariel - At the time, regardless of if I had trusted Ariel, I needed her power to save one person from exile for the plan. However, while many people were quick to say "I don't think a citizen would have tried so hard for that power!" (Robert, coincidentally, being one of them), I argued that a citizen would want that power the most. Aside from this, every single chat I had with Ariel up to the point made her come across as a citizen. She was one of the three leaders of our original group. After all of this, Ariel prevented a spy, Almathea, from being saved - Even at my recommendation (Why all of you who are lambasting me have not brought this up is astonishing, to be honest). Iris - In order for the plan to go through, we needed at least four total votes. The fourth person who was online was Iris, someone whom I had come to like and lean towards being a citizen after our first few days together. I invited Iris into the chat to discuss it, but she was not at her computer at the time. As such, she came into the chat about halfway through, but was still included in the plan because of this. I will say that if there was a traitor, I would imagine that it is Iris. However, I am still not sold, and do not think that is at all a strong reason to exile someone. Faith - After I had invited Iris, Faith came online, and I wanted Faith included in the plan. Not only do I think that Faith has lots of untapped potential, I cannot see her being a spy with the way she behaves and how she has voiced her suspicions both in private and in public. At that time, I wanted Faith included because I felt that she had the best chance of probing the other members of our group, to find out how they felt about both of the lynches. It was clear that people, if they truly suspect Robert or myself, or Ariel, would not tell us how they felt. People were wary of Iris. Yet Faith was someone that, at least the impression that I got from everyone in the game at that time, everyone wanted to talk to. I thought Faith would find us information where nobody else could. And above all else, I thought she could be trusted. That is why those four, and not you, Ed. Not only were you not online, but I found those four to be the most citizen of our group. personally, i just think that yvette is in survivor mode. she was simply interested in staying alive. if there are no spies in that group and they pull it off, success! if there is a spy in that group, well now the spies think they can manipulate her. either way she stays. The last quote to look at is this one, which is the most damning of all... Wait... How would Yvette know that? She seems almost POSITIVE from the moment Paris was announced as not a citizen that he wasn't a spy, either... Weird... i dont totally agree. when sam said 'not a citizen...', i was expecting some sort of a headfake. sam chooses his words very carefully. Ariel is not Immune from Exile #1, but I told you she was safe at the first Exile, let me tell you why. I also told you that three people would be "chosen to be kicked out" at the first Exile, and that is true. While three people will be chosen at Exile, only two will be Exiled. Ariel will choose one of the three people and save them from their fate.so when he said that, my immediate recation was not 'yaaa! we got a spy!' it was 'wait, what trick is sam playing here?' then sam said 'and....', and i think 'he was not a spy' is the logical and to 'he was not a citizen'.
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