Random.Org? Give me a break.

[Yvette]

May 21, 2009 9:20:23 GMT -5 Jason said:

May 21, 2009 1:43:37 GMT -5 Yvette said:

1. Coming from someone who argues that numbers, etc. are the way to go, to say that 5 people are equal in suspicions and that you will use a random source to determine your vote (Instead of thinking it through, following intuition, anything traceable or reflective of your character), it's not an offhand comment. I specifically asked him "How are you voting", and he specifically, genuinely answered "random.org"

That's not entirely true... You asked him how he would vote IF yesterday's events had not transpired...

Yes, because when I initially asked him how he was voting, he said he had not gathered all of that data yet. In other words, he said he could not vote based on what he did not know. So I asked him to vote based on what he previously knew.

The context, implications, and reasoning behind the question and the answer are exactly as I described them. And if you do not believe they are, then it is not my fault that when I am asked who I am voting and give a genuine answer, and then I simply respond with the same, I am given the run around. I have also addressed this in several posts in this thread, regardless.

[Thor]

callahan, this is what i'm talking about. you continue attempting to belittle the opinions of those who suspect you - especially myself and yvette - as if doing it enough will marginalize our opinions and convince our fellow players to ignore us.

khaled, you cannot possibly have believed at that point that myself, yvette, callahan, robert, and mirela were all equally suspicious. you also did not back up your reasons for any of them. all five of us have done completely different things thus far that all have varying levels of suspiciousness, so you must have some opinion of one stronger than another? as yvette said, using random.org is, at it's root, a cop-out. if you voted for player x and they stayed, you could simply state that you voted randomly and that you actually find player y more suspicious. having the ability to do this is wishywashy and potentially spylike.

[Paris]

Random.org should not be site used to make a decision that could change the outcome of the game. I understand Khaled narrowing it down to the top 5 but by making a conscious decision in who he votes for within those 5 with a specific reasoning, is much better than a site telling you which of those 5 is the "spy."

Also we need people to self-consciously vote within their given suspects and with a good reason beside "random" just so we can look back on it later in the game and to decide whether your vote at this time was rather genuine or not.

[Khaled]

Yvette, to be blunt, you've been strawmanning anything I've said for the entire duration of the game. Furthermore, it is NOT your place to tell me how/when I should play the game. And finally, when you ask a loaded question, expect a loaded answer.

I'm not a fan of how you like to "feel" things out, because that's not my style. You don't hear me crying from the hills about how whatever you seem to do is based exclusively off how well you interact with people. You still don't understand what I was trying to say, and until you can explain it back to me, I'm going to follow your argumentation style of being rude, shouting your points loudly, and refusing to listen to a moderately differing point of view.

[Yvette]

May 21, 2009 15:17:13 GMT -5 Khaled said:

Yvette, to be blunt, you've been strawmanning anything I've said for the entire duration of the game.

No. I've been pointing out everything you've said that strikes me as odd. There is a large difference. If you said less confusing things, there would be less of a reason to ask for explanation or interpret them as "wrongly" as you say I do.

Furthermore, it is NOT your place to tell me how/when I should play the game.

It certainly is not. Which is why I have not told you how to play the game. I have explained how this methodology is ultimately a cop out and an abandonment of responsibility, and I can only continue to recommend that instead of using an outside resource, you should do things on your own. But you will play as you wish.

And finally, when you ask a loaded question, expect a loaded answer.

Oh, I am sorry. I did not realize "Who are you voting for" as a response to you asking me the same question not one minute before, was a loaded question. Nor did I realize a rephrasing of the same question, "Who are you voting for as of 24 hours ago", was a "loaded" question. I will refrain from asking you things in the future that cause you such grief. Which will most likely include such loaded questions as "How are you doing today?" and "Can I ask you a question?"

I'm not a fan of how you like to "feel" things out, because that's not my style.

As I am not a fan of how you like to random.org things, as that is not my style.

You don't hear me crying from the hills about how whatever you seem to do is based exclusively off how well you interact with people.

That could mostly be due to the fact that I base almost nothing off of "How well" I interact with people. My suspect list is far different from this, actually.

You still don't understand what I was trying to say, and until you can explain it back to me, I'm going to follow your argumentation style of being rude, shouting your points loudly, and refusing to listen to a moderately differing point of view.

You still have not explained what you were trying to say.

[Yvette]

Also, I have not shouted my points loudly at all. I took a note from your book in being rude and inconsiderate in the first place, though. At least you have something that other people can adapt into their own personal style!

[Jenya]

I agree with Khaled that Yvette should be more tolerant. Being militant all the time is keeping some people out of the spies6 chatroom.

I think if Khaled actually uses random.org to pick his vote, that would be a very evil thing. You owe it to everyone to choose wisely, and if you allow someone to be voted out because of a random number, that is terrible. Not to mention it covers your butt for future days.

Imagine if we all did what you are talking about doing, Khaled. It would defeat the purpose of the game entirely. More importantly though it's not a very nice thing to do--imagine the feeling if you are a cit who gets voted off because someone didn't take the time to pay full attention and make the most intelligent choice.

If you never intended to vote randomly, you should make that very clear and retract your original comment.

[Robert]

May 21, 2009 15:49:39 GMT -5 Jenya said:

I agree with Khaled that Yvette should be more tolerant. Being militant all the time is keeping some people out of the spies6 chatroom.

I think if Khaled actually uses random.org to pick his vote, that would be a very evil thing. You owe it to everyone to choose wisely, and if you allow someone to be voted out because of a random number, that is terrible. Not to mention it covers your butt for future days.

Imagine if we all did what you are talking about doing, Khaled. It would defeat the purpose of the game entirely. More importantly though it's not a very nice thing to do--imagine the feeling if you are a cit who gets voted off because someone didn't take the time to pay full attention and make the most intelligent choice.

If you never intended to vote randomly, you should make that very clear and retract your original comment.

You stay out of chat because someone may aggressively look for spies there?

What do you do in normal mafia, not post in the thread if anyone is getting aggressive?

Part of the game is dealing with aggression. Aggression is a powerful tool in Mafia/Spies.

If you are avoiding chat because Yvette isn't all rainbows and unicorns, perhaps you aren't cut out for Mafia or mafia variants?

[Callahan]

May 21, 2009 12:28:03 GMT -5 Thor said:

callahan, this is what i'm talking about. you continue attempting to belittle the opinions of those who suspect you - especially myself and yvette - as if doing it enough will marginalize our opinions and convince our fellow players to ignore us.

Because yvette doesn't do the same thing? Please.

If you thought for yourself maybe you'd have a different opinion of me thundergod.

[Thor]

yvette actually provides reasoning. do i agree with all of it? no. you're doing the exact same thing that i just accused you of. you're attempting to belittle my opinion by calling me a sheep when i've given reasoning contradicting your judgment.

[Jenya]

May 21, 2009 16:19:53 GMT -5 Robert said:

You stay out of chat because someone may aggressively look for spies there?

What do you do in normal mafia, not post in the thread if anyone is getting aggressive?

Part of the game is dealing with aggression. Aggression is a powerful tool in Mafia/Spies.

If you are avoiding chat because Yvette isn't all rainbows and unicorns, perhaps you aren't cut out for Mafia or mafia variants.

Robert, you really need to calm down and read more carefully.

I said others have told me the spies6 rudeness is off-putting. I personally don't like your nasty attitudes but I bear them. Others, who can speak up if they like, stay out of that chat channel when the rudeness gets out of control. You are discouraging conversations.

Your energy is all wrong, Robert. Maybe you should move the furniture around in your room--try the bed at the opposite end from the door? Or perhaps add a water feature?

[Khaled]

May 21, 2009 16:19:53 GMT -5 Robert said:

Part of the game is dealing with aggression. Aggression is a powerful tool in Mafia/Spies.

If you are avoiding chat because Yvette isn't all rainbows and unicorns, perhaps you aren't cut out for Mafia or mafia variants?

There is a difference between aggression and harassment, Robert.

Jenya--you are absolutely right. If everyone DID do what I do, the citizen team would be royally fucked. The reason it works is because it relies on the fact that people employ different strategies. And no, I wouldn't outright do random.org. As I said previously, I would make a subjective evaluation to make a final decision. However, since I value such a decision as much as the crap I flush down my toilet, it is basically equivalent to randomly voting.