The Case for Gretchen = Spy

[Jenya]

Gretchen's first suspicions post she found Donald Cittish, Amelia spyish. Was right about Mei Yun and Oswald.

Next suspicions post, Roxy and Boris top suspects. Keeping an eye on Georgia and Kirsten, says don't vote Donald YET. Left out Amelia, Oswald and William, so probably had no further conversations with them.

Weighed in that Callahan was an obvious Cit.

Really wanted Roxy exiled at Exile 2:

If she flips Spy, I then have permission to post for one week everywhere which will stand for "I told you so".

Defended against a Kirsten attack:

* I think that if Roxy flips Citizen, then we can look at all the analysis and discussions our old team members had leading up to the first Exile. My argument stands for 2 reasons:
1) I haven't found someone else I believe we will glean more info on - especially if she does flip Spy.
2) I believe she is a Spy.

It's interesting you're saying the case against Roxy is flimsy when you're using similar points to lead a hunt on Levi - i.e. inconsistency.

Not bad.

But after Jaya's exiled, bizarrely says that cleared Roxy. Posts a long series of chats with dead spy Jaya. Ah, I see it now:

spies6jaya (11:28:03 AM): have to agree that knowing how roxy flips would tell us a lot
spies6jaya (11:28:33 AM): i think if roxy flips cit, then ariel is 99.9% confirmed cit
spies6jaya (11:28:50 AM): and it can't be bad to have a confirmed cit

Jaya sounds like a spy trying to get a mislynch for the sake of information. Good spot, Gretchen. Unless Roxy and Gretch are spies together, that's a +1 cit point for Gretchen.

Oddly, Gretchen tries to smear me for finding Ariel suspect:

Jenya, are you suggesting Ariel is a Spy???


four days after posting this:

I have to agree with Georgia here guys - passing Ariel as a Citizen could be a move which may prove fatal later on in the game.

Minor - point against Gretchen there for inconsistency. Though.. Ariel DID just nail Jaya. So maybe Gretchen's now convinced of Ariel's cithood.

Went after Donald for bandwagoning her and smearing her with a "false quote". Good spot.

Defends Yvette at Exile 3. Votes William. Not a bad vote at the time, kind of milquetoast.

Attacked Donald for switching his vote from Gretchen to Yvette.

Wanted to know who the spies would imprison at 4. Bet on Ariel/Kirsten.

Outstanding analysis of the Georgia vs. Roxy battle. +99 Cit points

Changed her vote at the last minute from William to Donald exile 4.

Gone for 13 days.

Defended Georgia (somewhat reasonably) for breaking Ariel's gravedigger chain.

Votes Thor because his convos with Iris looked staged, smears Rey a little for not defending him.

Takes a few pokes at Rey on the Thor issue, but strongly defends him at his exile.

Says Boris and Levi are the most likely spies in Empress, Mirela from Group of Death.

Changed her mind on Tiberius from Spy to Cit after reading a "Jaya nugget". Bought Kirsten's post thinking Amelia may have gotten immunity. Said she wouldn't vote Amelia. Settled on Levi for her vote--for "inconsistencies".

Defends herself from Kirsten. Doesn't sound like they're spies together at all.

Expressed strong dislike for Amelia. A little suspicious--I'd think the spies would hate Amelia for failing to vote/be around/etc:

Dear Amelia, You should have been voted the most useless in the game. For that reason I am glad you are gone.

Love never,
FAG.

Sticking on Levi for this upcoming exile.

Conclusion: Gretchen sounded pretty Cittish at first. She was a little inconsistent on Rey, but ultimately defended him. Switched to Donald late to help get an exile. Never once mentioned Iris before she was exiled. Said nothing about Amelia from May 20th to July 8th. Has never commented on Khaled. Seems to be sucking up to Georgia. Has never mentioned Pete. I think she finds Roxy cittish now. Not sure how she feels about Kirsten now--supposedly they used to talk a lot and now they don't.

10 being totally spyish, Gretchen's about a 5 or 6 for me. She sure is ignoring a lot of players--I don't know how you can totally ignore Khaled or Iris all game, for example.

That will be dangerous at endgame--she has nothing to tie her down to an opinion of so, so many players. Get Gretchen's opinions on EVERYONE, or we're in trouble via her mis-exile or her sneaking by as the final spy.

[Jenya]

Oh. Rey (-) voted Gretchen to save her at Jaya's exile, and he was very good at spotting Cits getting exiled.

Donald + voted Gretchen there, which might be why the spies decided to bus him--he was damaged goods after being caught blatantly trying to save Jaya. She also - voted Kirsten, so there's not much chance they're spies together. That would be awfully risky.

Looking at this Exile 2 vote, I'm moving Gretchen down to a 4 on the spy scale. She seemed to be the Spy alternative to Jaya, like Levi was at Donald's exile.

[Gretchen]

That's a really good analysis of my part in this game Jenya - pretty much nothing there to correct. I will comment on my "ignoring" of Pete and Khaled though for you.

Pete - have rarely talked to him on AIM. Throughout the game. He's never really posted any ideas I've felt I needed to comment on, but I do know that Yvette trusted him and thought he was a Cit before he was exiled. So I haven't actually ignored him as such - he's just been one I have pretty much left at the bottom of the pack.

Khaled - have tried to talk with him a couple of times on AIM when we have actually been online at the same time, but got very limited response. He's a busy boy and I am unsure as to his role's capabilities and which side of the game his alignment lies. I have read but I don't think responded to, most of his posts throughout the game. He would be in my bottom few as a Spy suspect, but I really don't know enough about him.

(sidenote on Roxy: You are correct that I changed my stance on her after the Jaya discussion. Having said that, nothing is set in concrete in this game of course, but I was right about Jaya / Tibby and I think probably right about Jaya / Roxy)

[Gretchen]

My single recorded Khaled AIM chat:

spies6khaled is available (10:29:26 AM)
spies6gretchen2 (10:29:26 AM): hi khaled!
spies6khaled is available (11:30:31 AM)
spies6khaled (11:30:31 AM): Hey there
spies6khaled (11:30:44 AM): what happened to gretchen 1? =P
spies6gretchen2 (11:30:54 AM): hehehe sam bounced her.
spies6gretchen2 (11:31:21 AM): hahaha nah its the same gretchen, but he stuffed up my log in or something when he blocked aim and now doesn't know the password. or something. whatever
spies6khaled (11:31:38 AM): Haha. Way to go him
spies6gretchen2 (11:31:46 AM): hehehe.
spies6khaled (11:31:55 AM): So real quick then, so I categorize you right...
spies6khaled (11:32:01 AM): What team were you on originally
spies6gretchen2 (11:32:03 AM): go for it
spies6khaled (11:32:07 AM): Rey or Georgia?
spies6gretchen2 (11:32:07 AM): ummmm mei yun's team
spies6gretchen2 (11:32:11 AM): georgia
spies6khaled (11:32:27 AM): Got it
spies6gretchen2 (11:32:38 AM):
spies6khaled is available (12:02:47 PM)

-=-

Most helpful AIM in the history of this game.

[Kirsten]

I'm thinking Gretchen is a citizen based on interactions with Donald. Donald sent Gretchen a PM early episode 1, and in combing my Gretchen chats, she references it a few times, suggesting the validity of it. I think it is unlikely that two spies were already so gung-ho in trying to distance to each other that early with fake PM's and talking about those PM's with other players, etc.

Donald also sent a PM to me: Citizen, and Roxy: Probably a citizen.

[Kirsten]

Tuesday, June 2nd

spies6Kirsten (7:55:11 PM): thoughts on the exile?
spies6gretchen (7:55:18 PM): shitty
spies6gretchen (7:55:28 PM): i knew she [edit:Yvette] was a cit. it was freaking stupid.
spies6Kirsten (7:55:34 PM): I feel vindicated, but it also sucks to lose a citizen
spies6gretchen (7:55:44 PM): and a good one too.
spies6Kirsten (7:55:47 PM): aye
spies6gretchen (7:55:56 PM): which is why i voted william. cause he's useless.
spies6gretchen (7:56:32 PM): if donald doesn't flip spy i will be mighty surprised. i can't believe he changed to yvette.
spies6gretchen (7:56:39 PM): well i can. but bah.

Implying knowledge that William is a cit?

Also, the mighty surprised bit if Donald doesn't flip spy is suspicious in relation to her planning to vote William again the next exile.

spies6gretchen (8:13:36 PM): who did william end up voting? was it yvette? i can't remember.
spies6Kirsten (8:14:48 PM): Donald
spies6Kirsten (8:14:57 PM): We talked yesterday, and I believe I convinced him into it
spies6gretchen (8:15:19 PM): ahah. i still don't like him. i think he is one to watch.
spies6Kirsten (8:15:48 PM): Willy?
spies6Kirsten (8:15:58 PM): he's on my neutral list
spies6Kirsten (8:16:03 PM): I felt better about him for voting Donald, though
spies6gretchen (8:16:53 PM): he seems to be convinced quite easily to vote for whoever is the flavour of the week. and yet doesn't contribute anything himself. he's a lurker in my book and always has been.

Why was William's lurking worse than Donald?

[Gretchen]

Nope I thought William was a useless lurker / spy because I had no idea (surprise) he had a role and was doing anything behind the scenes. Donald seemed less lurky because he approached me on both AIM and PM's here with questions - something which I thought only a Citizen would bother doing.

[Pete]

Seeing as it is memories week let us go back to the first themed week, which was future week. (Wow that is a weird sentence if you think about it) Up until that point, Ed had voted for Gretchen twice. As we now know, the spies had to pick someone for a future imprisonment and they picked Ed. As it has been shown previously, Gretchen has a tendency to find players suspicious that have found her suspicious or have voted for her: see Levi, Boris and myself. It wouldn’t be a too far step to then say that Gretchen decided to make sure that Ed was the imprisonment target.

This I feel is although not logically sound due to it having assumptions in it, is very plausible.

Gretchen has made a lot of comments from time to time how she absolutely knew that X and Y were citizens, yet, has actually not made (if at all) many posts defending someone. Has made a lot of passing comments about various exiles which are a bit odd, but this one intrigued me: (Credit goes to Levi)

Exile #2 - +'d Roxy because she wanted to see how Roxy flipped. Thought it would be interesting if Roxy was a Spy. Did not vote Jaya because she had no clue about Jaya from reading up on her. If Roxy was a Spy, it would incriminate Ariel for saving her at the previous Exile. If Roxy was a Spy, Gretchen could look at the people who had voted Roxy as suspects (even though she herself voted Roxy.)

However, in Jenya’s ‘Gretchen = Spy thread’ Gretchen apparently points out something from Jaya which gives her a citizen point, she reveals that Jaya had said to her about wanting to remove Roxy (and in the process get a possible mislynch) for the sake of information. Oh dear, Gretchen has just admitted to doing the exact same thing. Could she have posted that to divert people’s attention to what she herself had done?

Similarly in round two, me and Gretchen had a little talk about our votes and we have just found out that Jocelyn was removed from the game (bearing in mind it was painfully clear at this point that Jocelyn was not a spy)

spies6gretchen (01:39:50): bah i just read jocelyn is out. which means we need to find a new vote. i do have some reading to do!
spies6pete (01:41:13): yeah, but I dont think the team ever wanted to get rid of jocelyn.....

The argument that Gretchen was Jaya’s alternative in round 2 and thus not a spy, isn’t entirely valid. As seen, only one of the two known spies voted for Gretchen, and Jaya wasn’t even the alternative until very late on, it could just be that Donald saw his ally getting a lot of votes and wanted to jump on the bandwagon to avoid attention.

[Kirsten]

Jul 15, 2009 19:05:21 GMT -5 Pete said:

Did not vote Jaya because she had no clue about Jaya from reading up on her.

Gretchen, didn't you have a really long chat with Jaya?

[Levi]

Jul 15, 2009 19:05:21 GMT -5 Pete said:

Seeing as it is memories week let us go back to the first themed week, which was future week. (Wow that is a weird sentence if you think about it) Up until that point, Ed had voted for Gretchen twice. As we now know, the spies had to pick someone for a future imprisonment and they picked Ed. As it has been shown previously, Gretchen has a tendency to find players suspicious that have found her suspicious or have voted for her: see Levi, Boris and myself. It wouldn’t be a too far step to then say that Gretchen decided to make sure that Ed was the imprisonment target.

This I feel is although not logically sound due to it having assumptions in it, is very plausible.

Gretchen has made a lot of comments from time to time how she absolutely knew that X and Y were citizens, yet, has actually not made (if at all) many posts defending someone. Has made a lot of passing comments about various exiles which are a bit odd, but this one intrigued me: (Credit goes to Levi)

Exile #2 - +'d Roxy because she wanted to see how Roxy flipped. Thought it would be interesting if Roxy was a Spy. Did not vote Jaya because she had no clue about Jaya from reading up on her. If Roxy was a Spy, it would incriminate Ariel for saving her at the previous Exile. If Roxy was a Spy, Gretchen could look at the people who had voted Roxy as suspects (even though she herself voted Roxy.)

However, in Jenya’s ‘Gretchen = Spy thread’ Gretchen apparently points out something from Jaya which gives her a citizen point, she reveals that Jaya had said to her about wanting to remove Roxy (and in the process get a possible mislynch) for the sake of information. Oh dear, Gretchen has just admitted to doing the exact same thing. Could she have posted that to divert people’s attention to what she herself had done?

Similarly in round two, me and Gretchen had a little talk about our votes and we have just found out that Jocelyn was removed from the game (bearing in mind it was painfully clear at this point that Jocelyn was not a spy)

spies6gretchen (01:39:50): bah i just read jocelyn is out. which means we need to find a new vote. i do have some reading to do!
spies6pete (01:41:13): yeah, but I dont think the team ever wanted to get rid of jocelyn.....

The argument that Gretchen was Jaya’s alternative in round 2 and thus not a spy, isn’t entirely valid. As seen, only one of the two known spies voted for Gretchen, and Jaya wasn’t even the alternative until very late on, it could just be that Donald saw his ally getting a lot of votes and wanted to jump on the bandwagon to avoid attention.

I got credited.

I rock.

[Gretchen]

@ Kirsten:
Yup. A single AIM chat for about an hour. We discussed a few different things, like the Roxy idea for example.

@ Pete:
Bzzzzzzzzt. Wrong. I have made posts defending people here in the Burg and also on AIM. Examples = Rey and Yvette. For someone who apparently "follows" what I do within the Burg, you don't seem to be doing a very good job.

[Pete]

My vote for this round is on Gretchen, for reasons stated above, she has not detracted anything away from my argument on her and I feel strongly in her spy allignment. Cyall.

[Jenya]

I know Pete was in a hurry, but I have to post this from 45 minutes before his vote post above:

spies6pete (4:04:06 PM): hi jenya, whats up
spies6jenya (5:22:21 PM): Hi Pete, what's up?
spies6pete (5:22:34 PM): not much, both you and georgia said hello at the same time
spies6jenya (5:22:46 PM): wild. I just got home.
spies6pete (5:22:50 PM):
spies6jenya (5:22:59 PM): So you're headed out tomorrow. Vacation?
spies6pete (5:23:06 PM): yeah
spies6pete (5:24:45 PM): which means just deciding on next exile vote
spies6pete (5:24:54 PM): which I am pretty sure will be boris
spies6jenya (5:24:57 PM): Got any ideas yet?
spies6jenya (5:25:00 PM): Ah, ok, why Boris?
spies6pete (5:27:02 PM): my spin on his 'his new found activeness' is that he isnt very active, and has just called me out for what he himself had just been doing (and still is ) along with very little scumhunting, something just draws me to him
spies6pete (5:27:42 PM): i think if gretchen turns up spy, I might not vote him, but Im just trying to find out where his gretchen suspicions came from
spies6pete (5:28:35 PM): and if he is a cit, I extremely doubt he will be imprisoned
spies6jenya (5:28:48 PM): Ok so you're voting Boris this time
spies6jenya (5:28:59 PM): But if Gretchen turns up spy this time you won't vote Boris next time?
spies6pete (5:29:38 PM): Im still looking for when the boris suspecting gretchen came about

Boris, if you're a Cit, you need to defend yourself. Now. Kirsten and Pete voted for you, Levi's leaning towards voting for you, and it all feels a bit.. easy. And Pete's behavior here is bizarre for several reasons:

1) He seemed so sure of Boris as spy.
2) He said he'd NOT vote Boris if Gretchen came up spy. (See bolded, above.) But when would she come up spy? Before this exile?

I'm in a hurry but wanted to get this up here. Boris, where are you?

[Jason]

It sounds to me like things are between Boris and Gretchen... I think the two of them would actually make a good Spy pair so I'm open to either... I'll be online a lot tomorrow to talk, and hopefully I'll be able to catch both of you!

[Boris]

Vote for Gretchen if you want to get rid of a Spy. Vote for me if you want to relieve me of this game (and come closer to a mislynch). I honestly don't care which. I'll be voting for Gretchen. Given that it took me 3 exiles to get everyone to, you know, vote for fucking Amelia, and it turned out I was right, I would argue against doing the same god damned thing and just vote for the person I say to vote for this round (which is Gretchen, the fattiest fat fat that ever lived.)

[Georgia]

How is he voting for Boris?

When that chat piece came before him saying he was voting for Gretchen?

[Georgia]

Where did Boris come from, in regards to Pete?
In a convo with me, he said he was pretty focused on Gretchen.

[Mirela]

My vote will be for either Gretchen or Boris. Gretchen for her bizzare and fake stupidity, and Boris because he's had absolutely no ties with any of the dead spy. For all we know the only reason he voted Amelia so much was because everybody knew she was a spy. So the vote wouldn't seem suspicious because everyone thought that. It also makes him look like a citizen.

I wouldn't put it past Boris that he'd vote Amelia three times for the sake of making himself look like a citizen.

[Boris]

When has having no ties to a spy make one a spy? Also, all your reasons are lame and are based entirely in the realm of speculation. Come back with evidence.

[Georgia]

"everybody knew she was a spy"

How did everyone know that Amelia was a spy?
Please point this out.

[Mirela]

Everyone knew Amelia was a spy as soon as she claimed that she received Iris's gift.

End.

[Boris]

I think she was asking you to provide some sort of factual evidence.

[Boris]

Because from where I was sitting after that claim, everyone kept on saying "I don't think scum would be so stupid as to claim that role and go down with a sinking ship," hence the problems with it taking three whole exiles to get rid of her.

[Gretchen]

Jul 18, 2009 0:02:26 GMT -5 Boris said:

Vote for Gretchen if you want to get rid of a Spy. Vote for me if you want to relieve me of this game (and come closer to a mislynch). I honestly don't care which. I'll be voting for Gretchen. Given that it took me 3 exiles to get everyone to, you know, vote for fucking Amelia, and it turned out I was right, I would argue against doing the same god damned thing and just vote for the person I say to vote for this round (which is Gretchen, the fattiest fat fat that ever lived.)

Being fat doesn't make me a Spy hun.

If you vote for me, you are losing yet another Citizen.

I don't think there's much else to comment on in terms of my actions throughout the game - I think every point that has been thrown at me to comment on has been addressed. My vote will be for Boris. For two reasons:

1) Self-survival. As Levi said to me, a friend of his didn't make it into this season, and was devastated. I am not going out without a fight.

2) Change of character. At the start of the game, Boris was all about people sharing their ideas about multiple suspects. He is now pushing a single lynch on me. Yeah, he was right on Amelia. I was right on Donald. Big fucking deal. Doesn't mean much. Those of you who are thinking of voting for me, look at the comments he and Pete have made in terms of me being a Spy. Who is my partner? If it doesn't strike you as odd there's no one else being over-analysed and scrutinized this Episode, then that's a concern.

-=-

Mirela, you're an idiot. You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to me, my behaviour, my thoughts or my playstyle. Never once have you approached me to discuss ideas or even converse in a civil manner. I hope to God you're a Spy because if you're a Citizen this game will be over for the rest of the town if people actually pay attention to a word you say.

My report is not yet complete, obviously. I will endeavour to send through what I have completed before Exile tomorrow. It's still a random expression of thoughts and comments about moments in the game which have struck me as odd. I have actually spent around 12 hours compiling the ideas thus far and haven't had time to complete it due to RL intereference. Bastards.

Good luck to everyone for the rest of the game. If I don't survive this vote, I look forward to seeing most of you in the Losers' Lounge and recapping after the game.

[Levi]

I wouldn't say he was devastated, but I thought it was pretty rude of you to not care about the game when there were people who applied but didn't make it into the game.

It's the same deal when I absolutely hate those who quit a reality tv show or online application game. There were other people who applied to play said game . . . you are basically taking a spot that could have gone to someone who cared, and throwing it away.

[Gretchen]

Like I said Levi, I thought about what you said, and I agree with you. Having said that, not everyone has been all that pleasant towards me since I have been back, so to be honest I am happy to leave if that's what the Burg decides. But I will make sure I play my part and continue to protest my innocence until the end - out of respect for your friend, the other people who wanted to play, and those in the game who were taken out very early.

[Mirela]

Hmmm I smell a big pile of shit.

And it's right in front of me.

And I would talk to you Gretchen, but your NEVER on. See the problem with that?

[Gretchen]

Jul 18, 2009 13:23:12 GMT -5 Mirela said:

Hmmm I smell a big pile of shit.

And it's right in front of me.

And I would talk to you Gretchen, but your NEVER on. See the problem with that?

Well that's just a big fat lie right in front of me. I am online a lot - always at night as Kirsten, Levi and Georgia can confirm. Also, I was online during the day for 3 days this episode. Yet I don't recall you ever being around to have a chat with. Maybe you were, I don't know. At the end of the day Mirela, if you don't believe me you're going to exile yet another Citizen. That's a fact.

[Kirsten]

Jul 17, 2009 21:20:35 GMT -5 Jenya said:

I know Pete was in a hurry, but I have to post this from 45 minutes before his vote post above:

spies6pete (4:04:06 PM): hi jenya, whats up
spies6jenya (5:22:21 PM): Hi Pete, what's up?
spies6pete (5:22:34 PM): not much, both you and georgia said hello at the same time
spies6jenya (5:22:46 PM): wild. I just got home.
spies6pete (5:22:50 PM):
spies6jenya (5:22:59 PM): So you're headed out tomorrow. Vacation?
spies6pete (5:23:06 PM): yeah
spies6pete (5:24:45 PM): which means just deciding on next exile vote
spies6pete (5:24:54 PM): which I am pretty sure will be boris
spies6jenya (5:24:57 PM): Got any ideas yet?
spies6jenya (5:25:00 PM): Ah, ok, why Boris?
spies6pete (5:27:02 PM): my spin on his 'his new found activeness' is that he isnt very active, and has just called me out for what he himself had just been doing (and still is ) along with very little scumhunting, something just draws me to him
spies6pete (5:27:42 PM): i think if gretchen turns up spy, I might not vote him, but Im just trying to find out where his gretchen suspicions came from
spies6pete (5:28:35 PM): and if he is a cit, I extremely doubt he will be imprisoned
spies6jenya (5:28:48 PM): Ok so you're voting Boris this time
spies6jenya (5:28:59 PM): But if Gretchen turns up spy this time you won't vote Boris next time?
spies6pete (5:29:38 PM): Im still looking for when the boris suspecting gretchen came about

Boris, if you're a Cit, you need to defend yourself. Now. Kirsten and Pete voted for you, Levi's leaning towards voting for you, and it all feels a bit.. easy. And Pete's behavior here is bizarre for several reasons:

1) He seemed so sure of Boris as spy.
2) He said he'd NOT vote Boris if Gretchen came up spy. (See bolded, above.) But when would she come up spy? Before this exile?

I'm in a hurry but wanted to get this up here. Boris, where are you?

If I'm not mistaken, I think Pete was talking about his episode 12 vote, not his vote on Gretchen from last episode. Being gone for a week means he would have to vote in advance.

[Kirsten]

Also, people have piles of shit in front of them, big fat lies in front of them.

I WANT SOME WINE IN FRONT OF ME. Someone, please.