WHY ARE THE CITIZENS DOING SO WELL?

[Ellis]

That's the big question.

I've looked back over the past Spies games, and going purely on percentages, the only one that's come close to the record the citizens have set here was the original Spies series - 2 mislynches in 5 episodes. And even that's a greater percentage of mislynches than the 3 from 8 that we've got here.

In addition to this, no Spies game has ever had a spy exiled before episode three, and only one has had a spy exiled during it. (Again, the original Spies.) This game we've seen three scummy players fall before exile three, and while Paris may not count towards the spy total - the spies might very well have viewed him as an easy lynch to take the target off one of them - his role was still 100% anti-citizen.

So what's gone right?

Well, I definitely think this is the best citizen group since - and possibly including - Spies 1's "Miss Scarlett Alliance", the group that effectively led the exile of the last two spies. As with this game, there was some dysfunction in the ranks, but not enough for the spies to be able to derail what the MSAs were doing (owning spies). It helped that the spies never managed to truly integrate themselves into a very tight-knit citizen group.

Now so far I'd say that's been true of Spies 6 as well. The spies that have been caught so far, with the possible exception of Iris, really haven't managed to penetrate the "trusted citizens" ranks. There are exceptions - I thought Jaya was being framed and therefore shared more info with her than I should have, for example - but by and large the spies have been relative outsiders. Of course, a great deal depends on the spies that haven't been caught yet, but if they're who I think they are (Amelia, Khaled, Levi) then they're in much the same position, although Levi's gained some trust since the early rounds.

So - going back to the original question - how are the citizens doing so well?

Is it because of some disadvantage within the structure of the game? Given their numbers, I can't see one.

Is it because the spies are just helplessly bad? Not in my opinion. So far they're nowhere near as good as some of the past spies were, but they've definitely had their moments of brilliance.

Is it because the citizens are superb? Hardly, we've made mistakes (Callahan, Yvette, Faith.) We (they now) are good, but not infallible.

I think to a certain degree the spies are outclassed, and also that the early death of Almathea hurt them hugely - it made Jaya and Paris very obvious and gave the citizens a bucketload of information to work with.

Is there anything else? What do you guys think?

Opinions please.

[Faith]

If I had to take a guess I would think Alma being exiled round 1 + Jaya voting to try to help her was a HUGE hit against the spies. I would think it'd be hard morally to regroup when you're already two spies (+ traitor) down in round 2.

I also don't think the spies have been choosing imprisonments that well to be honest. At least at the start there.

Iris would have had Robert/Yvette's trust if Robert/Yvette continued to survivie that she easily could have used to her advantage. Imprisoning Robert round one pointed the blame right at Ariel/Yvette/Iris/Myself. While it did help exile Yvette/myself it in turn also helped exile Iris and now Amelia I feel due to the role claim. If I was a spy I would have gained their trust to use in my advantage and imprison them later when it wouldn't point directly back to me. *shrugs*

Mei Yun wasn't a good imprisonment either in my eyes unless they knew she had a role, which is possible. I know Mei Yun was hot on Iris' tail but in no way, shape or form was she cleared and I don't know if she had enough support for an Iris exile at the time. From the start of the game I always thought Mei Yun could have been a spy when I found out the spies knew about their roles from the very start. So I was always slightly suspicious of her.

Gabriela was fine because she's clearly a smart cookie At the time though I was kind of just because she seemed to be UTR in my eyes.

If the spies ended up choosing Ed to be taken out in the future... that was just dumb. During future week Ed was no where in the slighest cleared and to me never looked like a citizen. If Ed was chosen from someone else's role... then well the spies can't help that.

Ellis and Jenya's imprisonments were pretty good choices as well but if Kirsten is really a citizen I don't understand why she is still there.

So yeah losing two spies early + bad imprisonment choices + some really good citizens = citizens dominating. I think at least.

[Ellis]

Ah yes, bad imprisonment choices. I forgot that one... but yes, I pretty much agree with everything you've said there. So add that one to the list of reasons why the spies are failing so badly right now...

[Ed]

I'm the Rodney Dangerfield on Imprisoned citizens....no respect.

Although I do agree that I was an odd choice. No role and I was wasting my votes on Gretchen...other than being forced to imprison me the only thing that makes any possible sense is my drunk suspicion of Ariel back when many more people thought she was a likely citizen.

[Mei Yun]

Well in my confessional I said it: if they Imprisoned me for any other reason aside from learning I had a role, (oh god I am starting to take that back) then they are the dumbest set of Spies this series has seen.

Clearly I would have made a good puppet or scapegoat or the perfect frameup but I could not see why they would not capitalize on that! Georgia would push for my Exile at ANY time. Rey was also partially suspicious as he was just looking for one last piece of evidence against me. The only thing I can see here is that I did, in fact, threaten them as Amelia, Donald and Iris and even Jenya were nowhere near my trusted set of people (Oswald, Rey, Levi, Kirsten, Ellis, Jason). I could have mentioned that fact to another Spy (so check that trusted list!) so they confirmed that I was slightly duping them with how I played with them. I guess they forgot that it would be more fun to dupe me!

I guess that is their biggest weakness so far that the Spies have failed to take leadership and make those "power pushes" for Exiles. If they want to win, they have to start making believable and solid cases rather than focusing on the defensive. They also have to have a long term plan on how they are going to win this game, because at this rate, they have to reach F5 or F3 just to win, and that is quite difficult.

[Ellis]

Jun 22, 2009 18:18:27 GMT -5 Mei Yun said:

I guess that is their biggest weakness so far that the Spies have failed to take leadership and make those "power pushes" for Exiles. If they want to win, they have to start making believable and solid cases rather than focusing on the defensive. They also have to have a long term plan on how they are going to win this game, because at this rate, they have to reach F5 or F3 just to win, and that is quite difficult.

I agree. In fact, unless someone like Jason really is a spy, I'd say they've got no shot of making it past the next five episodes. In fact I'd be rather surprised if they weren't all gone in four.

[Ellis]

Anybody got anything more to say on this topic right now? It's def. what you'd call "relevant".

Maybe I should rename it: "Why were the citizens doing so well, and why are they now being bamboozled at every turn?" The rot started around about the time Iris was exiled, and the time I was imprisoned.

Let's get the obvious point out of the way here first: I think my imprisonment was a significant factor (I'd never have let the Thor and Rey exiles go through if I could've prevented them for example, which is one of the many reasons I can think of why Jenya might have chosen to imprison me despite the fact that I trusted her as much as anyone in the game - she knew that I'd defend Thor and Rey hard if they were attacked.)

I also think Iris' exile contributed in that all but two of the most "obvious" spies were gone. But there was still Amelia, and while I'd certainly have defended both Thor and Rey, I hardly think that the imprisonment of one citizen or the exile of one spy is enough to explain how she survived TWO exiles, and two players that I'd mostly viewed as strong citizens got booted instead. How come nobody else took a stand for Thor or Rey?

So what's gone wrong? Given that the cits were so successful early on, what happened to make them get to the stage where they seem pretty close to a guaranteed loss?

[Mei Yun]

Imprisonment.

Ellis + Mei Yun + Gabriella =

[Ed]

Jul 22, 2009 21:43:52 GMT -5 Mei Yun said:

Imprisonment.

Ellis + Mei Yun + Gabriella =

I love how failed Citizens give themselves a false sense of importance. Maybe I'm just biased against Asian females, but you remind me of good ol' Reacharound from Spies3.

PS I'm an internet asshole and you spelled Gabriela incorrectly.

[Roxy]

Jul 23, 2009 3:01:09 GMT -5 Ed said:

Jul 22, 2009 21:43:52 GMT -5 Mei Yun said:

Imprisonment.

Ellis + Mei Yun + Gabriella =

I love how failed Citizens give themselves a false sense of importance. Maybe I'm just biased against Asian females, but you remind me of good ol' Reacharound from Spies3.

PS I'm an internet asshole and you spelled Gabriela incorrectly.

Oh. Hell. No.

[Mei Yun]

Jul 23, 2009 3:01:09 GMT -5 Ed said:

Jul 22, 2009 21:43:52 GMT -5 Mei Yun said:

Imprisonment.

Ellis + Mei Yun + Gabriella =

I love how failed Citizens give themselves a false sense of importance. Maybe I'm just biased against Asian females, but you remind me of good ol' Reacharound from Spies3.

PS I'm an internet asshole and you spelled Gabriela incorrectly.

Of course! Definitely people with roles like me are less important than say somebody who had a heads up on their Imprisonment and did NOTHING!

Great job!

[Ariel]

What bugs me the most is that we had a chance to affect the game from the grave and we got brushed off.

[Mei Yun]

Jul 23, 2009 13:06:59 GMT -5 Ariel said:

What bugs me the most is that we had a chance to affect the game from the grave and we got brushed off.

Ugh... don't even remind me.

[Roxy]

Jul 23, 2009 13:22:52 GMT -5 Mei Yun said:

Jul 23, 2009 13:06:59 GMT -5 Ariel said:

What bugs me the most is that we had a chance to affect the game from the grave and we got brushed off.

Ugh... don't even remind me.

Well I pointed it out..

And now I'm here.

[Tiberius]

Imprisoning some of our more intelligent/ independent citizens.

The fact that Amelia didn't got DIRECTLY after Iris is still flabbergasting to me. I just can't... process it at all.

But had I not been imprisoned... I'm not sure I would have caught onto Jenya, so I really don't have much room to talk I suppose.

[Ed]

Jul 23, 2009 10:46:21 GMT -5 Mei Yun said:

Of course! Definitely people with roles like me are less important than say somebody who had a heads up on their Imprisonment and did NOTHING!

Unless I am mistaken, Ellis had no role. Also, one of your BFF Seasonal Queens knew about my impending Imprisonment and "did NOTHING" as well.

[Ellis]

Jul 23, 2009 3:01:09 GMT -5 Ed said:

Jul 22, 2009 21:43:52 GMT -5 Mei Yun said:

Imprisonment.

Ellis + Mei Yun + Gabriella =

I love how failed Citizens give themselves a false sense of importance. Maybe I'm just biased against Asian females, but you remind me of good ol' Reacharound from Spies3.

PS I'm an internet asshole and you spelled Gabriela incorrectly.

Pointing out that Mei said it, not me... 'Snot self-importance if I say that I would've opposed the Thor / Rey exiles, 's a fact.

Also Reacharound? ROFL, that's a good one.

[Judge Sam]

One thing I really find interesting in these games, especially towards the end, is that people become so wrapped up in their own opinions and theories. It is my opinion that even if I were to tell them the direct truth, in a slightly roundabout yet poignant way, they still would not factor that into their opinions. (And sometimes in games the Spies do make little statements like that, where they 'jokingly' reveal the truth but say it in a way which can be taken as dismissive, which I always find hilarious. )


This is a bad example but to get across what I'm saying it's kinda like if you have a friend who is in an abusive relationship. You can tell them the truth, point them out examples that prove your point, and at some level they see the truth, but they refuse to believe it. They go on as normal. And yes, most of you here would be in the exact same position the players in the game are and equally as clueless! Though the Spies did pick some really good Imprisonments.


It didn't surprise me in the slightest that no one really took notice of your citizen messages. Even if I had not had any Spies pick entires (and really, they only picked like what three? four? something around there), and had I included your confessionals, I doubt they would have taken notice. I've hosted a lot of games, and I've noticed this a lot, both from players who directly tell people what is going to happen to them if they stick with their alliance (as in Survivor), or in mafia. It's very interesting!

[Ellis]

I totally agree with what Sam just said. It's hypocritical for me to start criticizing the cits, for example, for ignoring my huge support of Rey and subsequent imprisonment, when I was just as hard to convince about Jenya here.

To add to it though, I think it also makes a big difference when you're out of the game, for so many reasons - the pressure is off, you don't have to worry about covering your own ass, you don't have to worry about being imprisoned, you don't have to worry about how your fellow citizens see you or whether the spies will try and frame you. All that adds up to a much easier time when all you have to do is sit back and point out what people still in the game are doing wrong. Sucks to be us, eh?

[Ellis]

Jul 23, 2009 14:53:38 GMT -5 Ed said:

Jul 23, 2009 10:46:21 GMT -5 Mei Yun said:

Of course! Definitely people with roles like me are less important than say somebody who had a heads up on their Imprisonment and did NOTHING!

Unless I am mistaken, Ellis had no role. Also, one of your BFF Seasonal Queens knew about my impending Imprisonment and "did NOTHING" as well.

FTR, I've answered the "role" question so much, I'd like to change my position slightly.

I HAD A ROLE. It was called the "Butt Plug". My job was to stop the spies from fucking the citizens in the ass with a ten-inch dildo. Unfortunately I was imprisoned before I could finish it.

[Thor]

So that's why I like you so much.